March 27th, 1998 Guests on this program were: Penn Jillette Neil Patrick Harris Amy Holmes Cy Curnin Bill's Opening [ Applause ] Bill: Thank you, everybody. Thank you. All righty. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Are you following the President's trip to Africa? Audience: Yeah. Bill: Hey, they are. Two of them are. That's better than none. Well, very stirring pictures today from the Horn of Africa. And by that, I mean Bill Clinton. No, I'm kidding. [ Laughter ] That's his nickname down there. [ Laughter ] No, Nelson Mandela, the inspirational leader of South Africa, took the President on a tour of the prison where Mandela was in for 18 years before he became President of South Africa. And Clinton was absolutely dumbfounded. Because of course, in this country, you get to be President and then they try to put you in jail. [ Laughter and applause ] See, it never stops for President Clinton. He is constantly assaulted. Today, a new revelation -- well, it was in "The Star," but all the papers picked it up. [ Laughter ] I'm not kidding. A woman who was a flight attendant on his campaign plane in 1992, her name is Christy Zercher, Christy Zercher says that she was fondled by the then-governor for 40 minutes during the flight. [ Laughter ] I'm not kidding. And they asked her today, Christy Zercher, they said, "Why did you wait till after Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky and Kathleen Willey?" And she said, "I thought we were going alphabetically." Now, come on! [ Laughter and applause ] Well, big news from Switzerland. As you know, Swiss banks during World War II acted in a very unsavoury way with the holocaust survivors. Well, now, they have said they're going to make a settlement, which reminds a lot of people of the tobacco settlement, because same kind of deal. They said they're going to make a cash reparation. They said they are going to stop spinning this story in their own way. And they're going to get rid of their popular cartoon character Joe Genocide, which -- [ Laughter ] Let's work on that later on -- or maybe discuss it over dinner tomorrow night. But here's the story that I think is a little more accessible. The kissing contest of all time ended today, 29 hours, a new record was set. I guess this is the Breath Savers longest kiss contest, and Mark and Roberta Griswold set the record, a 29-hour kiss, went on for 29 hours. At the end of it, Roberta said, "Why did you stop? I was so close." [ Laughter and applause ] And -- and, of course, finally tonight, "Grease." [ Cheers and applause ] Look at that, I'll tell ya. "Grease" is the word. I just had to say "The Word." That's right, "Grease" reopens after 20 years. It's a little updated. John Travolta still plays a smooth-talking horndog on the make, but now, they're calling it "Primary Colors." [ Laughter ] All right, thanks for coming. It's all been satirized for your protection. Thank you, folks. [ Applause ] Panel Discussion [ Applause ] Bill: All right, let us meet our panel -- She is a policy analyst for the independent women's forum, Amy Holmes. Amy? [ Cheers and applause ] There you are. Nice to meet you, young lady. Thank you for coming. He is the lead singer of The Fixx. Their new CD, "Elemental," hits stores April 7th, it's a great one. Cy Curnin, yeah! [ Cheers and applause ] Hey, I love this. Thank you for coming. [ Applause ] He's the larger, latter half of Penn and Teller. They'll be at the Wiltshire Theatre here in L.A. through April 5th, Penn Jillette. [ Cheers and applause ] All right, my friend. Always good to see you. He was TV's "Doogie Howser," now, he's the distinguished star of "Starship Troopers" and "Rent." His new movie, "The Proposition," opens today. Neil Patrick Harris. [ Cheers and applause ] Neil, good to see you, how are you? [ Applause ] All right, well, President Clinton is wrapping up his first week there in Africa. And yesterday on the show, we had a very lively discussion about the Reggie White situation, and today, Reggie White did not apologize. He said, "I'm not going to apologize. I said what I said and that's that." -- which is interesting 'cause Clinton is in Africa apologizing to everybody except the Emperor Paula Jones, apparently. And I just want to throw this open, who do you think should apologize and for what? Should we apologize for slavery? Should Clinton apologize? Should Reggie white apologize? Neil: What was he apologizing for? Like, I didn't get it that he was apologizing -- the purpose of his going there was to apologize. Bill: Well, he said, he said, "We feel bad about the fruits of the slave trade." He was referring to RuPaul. [ Laughter ] I'm kidding, I'm kidding! No, he said we were wrong, which is pretty close to an apology. He apologized in Rwanda, because we didn't go in there. Amy: Interestingly, the President of Uganda, he said, you know, "Hey, man, we did it, too." And he sort of told President Clinton that no one can keep Africans backwards. It's up to us to move forward. And I think that was a really important thing to say, you know, "That was 200 years ago. We, too, were involved in the slave trade" -- something that, unfortunately, in this country we don't seem willing to recognize, that it was a trade, it was an exchange. And the President of Uganda was saying, "And we are moving forward from that." I think President Clinton should have listened closely to that statement. Cy: So we should really take that momentum and move forward. I mean -- Bill: So we shouldn't apologize? Cy: I don't think an apology is -- it's rather condescending to apologize, in a way. I mean, yeah, we all feel sorry for the way it was, but I was born into a world where we'd moved on from a lot of those problems. The problems still exist, but to apologize seems to sort of take you back. Bill: A lot of people don't realize that the slave trade in the Americas was an active thing when we got here. And actually, America ended it. There are some people who would say, "How about a 'thank you'?" Amy: Right, and we ended it in 1808, and actually, slavery still exists in Africa today. Bill: Yes, it does. Amy: Yes, black Africans are being traded in Sudan, Mauritania, Libya and apparently, in far reaches of Ghana. So I would like to see those leaders apologize to their own people today. [ Applause ] Bill: Well -- [ Sustained applause ] Cy: I mean, the other thing, too, that we were saying earlier, you know -- ^ We are the world We are the -- ^ It kind of is so -- in the end, it reminded us how pathetic we all can be. I think one truckload of rice and grain -- Bill: I'd like an apology for that song. [ Laughter ] I never liked that song. Cy: That was rock 'n' roll's great effort to try and end famine in Africa. I think only one grain of -- one truck of grain got to -- Penn: Well, it didn't actually get there, they tried with a truck. Cy: Right, but it's all political. Everybody's -- they're so innocent. People are so innocent. You get a few guys over there with a few guns, they can control the whole status quo for as long as they like. And until free trade becomes a bigger carrot for them, rather than just controlling their local markets, once they get a taste for the global market, they'll be off. And in the gap, you'll be starting to see "Made in Uganda" on the back of clothes. Neil: But I was just impressed that Clinton was over there to show approval for them trying to start a democracy. I didn't see it as, like, an apology for the things that had happened in the past, but that -- Bill: He said we were wrong in -- where was it? Neil: But his reason for going there in the first place I don't think was to make a public apology, but to show our support for their attempts towards democracy, which is a good thing. Amy: Right. I mean, that was the reason for the trip, but it seems to have turned into the tour of contrition rather than actually trying to get beyond that -- Bill: And why was he apologizing in Rwanda? In Rwanda, there was a civil war where they savagely hacked each other apart. And he was apologizing. That to me seems patronizing. Amy: Well, I thought it was bizarre, I mean, if he really has 800,000 murders on his conscience, you know -- Bill: Why is it his conscience? What the hell did we have to do with Rwanda? Penn: Well, there is a professional magician's point of view on this, too. [ Laughter ] And that is, we have a thing called misdirection. And if you're being accused of perjury, it's good to go on safari to Africa and apologize for everything else. [ Laughter and applause ] Bill: All right, we gotta take a commercial. We'll come back to this in a little bit. [ Applause ] Bill: Okay, you mentioned slavery in Africa, which still does go on. Now, it's, of course, very politically incorrect to say that there's primitive anything in the world anymore, which is why I'd like to talk about it. But there is slavery that goes on there. There is female genital mutilation that goes on there. There is religious slavery where girls -- I saw this on "60 Minutes" -- girls are owned by priests for something their relatives did in another life. They -- the priests have these slave girls. Is it primitive? Is it wrong to say that? And if not, what does the word mean? Amy: I think we can say that these are primitive practices. You know, Ghana was the first country in Africa to gain independence in 1957, and while they've come certainly so far, they haven't -- they have not become a stable country. They haven't banished these primitive practices. I don't think that saying it's a primitive culture and a primitive political system says anything about the intelligence of individuals. I think it gives us room to reform what's going on there and be able to turn it around. [ Applause ] Bill: But, yeah, that's -- Cy: That leads to the question that human rights as a sort of a relativity factor to human rights here. And what seems right to us or wrong to us may not seem right or wrong in the same scope of things to them. If you take things out of context, it can appear shocking. Penn: But there are things, I think, that as a culture, we have to decide are right or wrong. I think that it's very hard to do that argument with -- Cy: With our culture or their culture? Penn: I think that there are some things as human beings we might have to say they're wrong. I think that -- I think we have decided that slavery is wrong. Cy: Right, I mean, I agree with you. Penn: I think we have decided that certain mutilation against someone's will -- if they're okay with it, I'm fine with it -- but against someone's will, mutilation is just wrong. And there's a lot of scientific facts that we just have that we can say -- we can prove. And if you can prove it or if it's deeply human rights, I think you still have to fight for it, even if their culture is -- Cy: I agree totally. I mean, it's the fact that human rights need to catch up quite a lot. And then you would hope that if Africa advances technologically, we'd leapfrog where we're at now. Because otherwise, you're gonna have the same fossil fuel-burning problems that we're having now. Penn: You mean fuel getting really cheap, that problem? Cy: They need to be driving an electric car. But first, they've gotta build the roads. First, the infrastructure has to go. Bill: Well, cheap fuel is a problem. Penn: Do you think that's a problem, that fuel is cheap? Bill: I think it's a horrible problem. Because one, it's gonna run out. Cy: It's four bucks a gallon. Penn: But it doesn't -- we have more available now -- Bill: It's polluting. Penn: -- Than we had ten years ago. We are finding more stores all the time. Amy: And it doesn't run out, because as the supply contracts, it becomes more expensive, which means that, you know -- Bill: It will run out. [ Talking over each other ] -- Only a certain amount of dinosaurs died. They're not making any new dinosaurs. [ Laughter ] Amy: But people won't be buying it at the same rate they might have. Penn: We are the new dinosaurs. Amy: And then you -- Bill: People buy it up more quickly when it's cheap. That's the problem. Amy: No, it becomes more expensive as the supply for it contracts, right? So it also -- so if the supply of gas is contracting, then you have innovation coming in and people saying "Well, maybe sunlight-powered cars are competitive with gas-powered cars." Like, it's a dynamic process. Penn: We're running out of tin, we're running entirely out of tin. And everybody was saying the same stuff about tin at the end of the '50s as you're saying about fossil fuels. And we were running out of tin. Then aluminium came in and tin wasn't a problem anymore. Bill: But you can't run a car on aluminium. Penn: But the big resource we have is human brain power and intelligence. And we will solve problems when we come. We don't need -- Bill: Oh, that is really -- [ Applause ] Penn: Things just kept getting better. There are fewer people starving, there are fewer -- Bill: Things for you keep getting better -- Penn: Things for everyone keep getting better. Bill: -- Because you're a successful magician. [ Laughter ] Penn: Yeah, which is an oxymoron. Cy: About supply, I mean, Ford has been holding back patents on alternative -- Penn: No, they haven't! You're out of your mind! [ Laughter ] They wouldn't hold that back! They'd make too much money. Cy: You know, there's enough oil to choke the planet three times over if we all burnt it in cars. I think, eventually, there are alternative forms of power. Penn: We just seem to solve problems that come our way. And as there are more people on the planet and more free people on the planet -- Bill: That is such a Prozac way of looking at things. [ Laughter ] Penn: Well, Prozac came from that kind of thinking. Prozac has helped a lot of people in a lot of ways. Amy: But you know, we're not sitting on this stage with gas lamps. Bill: But you can't run a car on it. Penn: Maybe you can't. Bill: What's that? Amy: I mean, we're not sitting on the stage under gas lamps. Human innovation is obviously what's giving us the ability to have cars, to run cars, to be able to go to the grocery store and buy strawberries that were grown in South America. Bill: I know, but to say, "Screw the future, we'll think of our way out of it" -- Penn: It's giving some faith to the future and saying there are going to be smarter people than us coming along. There always have been. In 100 years, there are going to be people with a lot better technology and a lot smarter than anybody on Earth now ever thought of being. Bill: You'll regret that when you're dead. [ Laughter ] All right, we have to take a commercial. We'll be back. [ Cheers and applause ] Bill: All right. We have mentioned body mutilation. You said it's okay if you want it. A lot of kids today -- and, I guess, adults -- want it, which is a controversy, 'cause here in California, they passed a law that said you have to check with your parents if you want to get your body pierced. You think that's ridiculous. Cy: It is, because the whole reason you want to get your body pierced is to make your father stand up and go -- "He's going to have a heart attack, mission accomplished." [ Laughter ] Bill: You're right, yeah. Cy: If he has to go skulking around to get it done, it's like back-street abortions. He's gonna get infected. The piercing should be licensed and be legislated. Penn: It's also if your parents can't stop you from getting pierced. If you're not gonna ask them permission, then Pete Wilson's not gonna be able to stop ya. It's a really easy procedure. It doesn't need to be a medical. Pat Whitney, who works as your stage manager here. Bill: Yes, yes. Penn: When you were in high school -- is that right? -- we were talking about this. His school said that boys could not have their ear pierced. At the time, you were in a shop class, when they announced it, picked up a metal punch -- boom! Through the ear, he was done, he was pierced. I could pierce you anywhere you wanted in about three minutes without Pete Wilson getting near me. All we need is my ballpoint pen, and someone bring out a beer. [ Laughter ] We'll just put it right through wherever you want. Amy: And this is exactly why Pete Wilson wants to pass this law -- to keep you away from 14-year-olds! [ Laughter ] [ Cheers and applause ] Penn: And I applaud him for that. It's a very good move. Cy: It's a passing fad. It's a passing fad. If you let it roll, it will just go on like every other fad. Bill: It's a passing fad that lasts a lifetime. Penn: No, no, no, it heals up. Neil: If you pierce your tongue and you take that piercing out, even if you had it in there for a year, it heals up in like two days -- a week, something. Amy: But I think it's perfectly reasonable for a parent to say, "Hey, I want to know about your intention to go have a creepy guy come at you with dirty needles." Neil: As long as it's done safely. Amy: Well, maybe the parent wants to have that conversation. And I don't think it's a tragedy for a 14-year-old to get into a fight with his dad about whether or not he gets his tongue pierced. Neil: Better that than a tattoo, though, don't you think? Amy: Better a pierce than a tattoo? Neil: You can take the nose ring out, and you have a little hole in your nose, that's it. That whole tattoo phase -- Penn: The laser stuff's gonna get better, and tattoos will go away. Bill: And you are pierced somewhere? Penn: I am pierced in my ear and down below. Yes. [ Laughter ] Bill: What does that mean? Penn: What would you like? I probably should -- Bill: Just describe it. Penn: Okay. The bottom of my scrotum is pierced. [ Groans ] The part closest to the centre of gravity. Bill: And what does that do you for you? [ Laughter ] Penn: Place -- place to keep my keys during sex. [ Laughter and applause ] Bill: All right! We'll take a commercial. I certainly have nothing to add to that. Announcer: Join us Monday when our guests will be Ice Cube, Caroline Rhea, Julianne Malveaux and Wayne Allyn Root. [ Applause ] Bill: All right, as long as we're talking about what kids can and cannot do, there was a big controversy this week in Evans, Georgia -- no, nobody got shot. But they had Coke day -- now, we've talked about this on the show. They have corporate sponsorships in schools now. Coca-Cola will come in and say, "We'll give you $3 million, and you'll put Coke all over your football stadium, you'll only have Coke in the school, in the vending machines." Okay, so they had a -- Coke came to the school one day, and a kid wore a Pepsi logo on his T-shirt. Penn: A kid like you, Bill. A kid like you. Bill: Yes. Cy: Sounds like an episode of "South Park." [ Light laughter ] Bill: A bit of a rebel, and they suspended this kid. Which I think is outrageous. Neil: I agree. [ Applause ] Penn: Does anybody disagree with you on this? Cy: I swear, I remember seeing a Coke commercial where they had a Pepsi can in the same commercial when they were doing the comparison test. So they put each other against each other in the same commercial, when it suits them. Now I guess the principal must have been having a heart attack -- Bill: They accused the kid of being rude, because he wouldn't kiss corporate ass. [ Laughter ] Penn: Was that their exact words? Cy: If his corporate ass was kissed -- pierced, it might be a different thing. Bill: I've never heard of an ass piercing. [ Laughter ] Penn: I have. Bill: You have? Penn: Uh, what I want to know about this is how did we find out about it? Was it the Georgia Stringer for "The New York Times" that had the story? Or do they have a Pepsi guy that follows around these big corporate sponsorships, looking for juicy little tidbits that'll get Pepsi in the headline? How do we know that? Bill: You had your brain pierced. [ Laughter ] It was a big metal thing -- Penn: But really, was it the kid that brought it the attention? Bill: That I don't know. Penn: It wasn't Coca-Cola, you know that. It wasn't the principal. Neil: What is Coke doing sponsoring these Coke days at school? What is that? Penn: Every week is a heavily caffeinated sugar beverage week, and they go through them one by one. Neil: But I don't understand the -- Bill: Well, first of all, they do this all over the country. They sponsor schools, take money from corporations. Neil: Just for the day? Bill: No, but for this day -- listen to this -- the executives came to the school to give away a $500 check -- 500 big ones -- Neil: Whoo, man! Bill: For the most creative method to distribute promotional discount cards. So, in other words, for 500 bucks, they've got these kids pimping for them! Amy: Right, right. [ Laughter ] Bill: And competing with each other to see who can be the biggest pimp. Neil: Good on, Pepsi Pete. Let them do it. Penn: They got one kid that isn't pimping for them, they got one kid. Cy: You're not allowed to teach religion in school, but you can sell Coke. Bill: Right, that's a good point. Amy: That's a really good point. Bill: Coke is the religion in the school. God forbid. Penn: At least it's a step in the right direction. [ Laughter ] From religion to Coke -- I mean, Coke isn't great, but it's better than religion. [ Laughter ] At least Coke gives you something. At least you're not quite as thirsty when you have that little after-taste in your mouth. Religion you get jack. Maybe you kill some other people, then go home and pray about it. But Coke, you get a sip, and feel good for a moment! A little bit of a rush or something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher Executive Producers Scott Carter Bill Maher Nancy Geller Senior Producer Douglas M. Wilson Supervising Producer Kevin E. Hamburger Created By Bill Maher Directed By Michael Dimich Writing Supervised By Chris Kelly Writers K.P. Anderson Bill Kelley Bill Maher Billy Martin Jerry Nachman Ned Rice Cliff Schoenberg Danny Vermont Scott Carter Executive in Charge of Production John Fisher Executive Producers Brad Grey Bernie Brillstein Marc Gurvitz ©1997 Brillstein-Grey Communications